Comments on: Where Are The Women? http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/ Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:08:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Boreraig http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-427 Boreraig Thu, 04 Oct 2007 03:05:16 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-427 Amazing message. I guess you'll comment my blog.. See you! Amazing message.
I guess you’ll comment my blog..
See you!

]]> By: Deanie Johnson http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-295 Deanie Johnson Sat, 01 Sep 2007 04:09:06 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-295 Heather- I am jumping into this conversation late, but I want to chime in anyway. I love the Church of Christ heritage, although as with all flavors of christianity, we have our warts! One of the things I find encouraging about the C of C is that WE define it. It has changed so much from one generation to the next, sometimes for the better, often for the worse, but it is constantly changing and being reinvented by a new generation of believers. As someone who works with our youth at Garnett, I am excited by the fact that our teens don't carry any of this baggage concerning women in leadership. We have many strong female leaders and we celebrate them. I am about to begin a small group study for our middle school girls called, "She Rox!" We will be talking about many of the women you mentioned in your post. I will be using the examples set by these ordinary women to challenge the girls to become the extraordinary servants God has called each of them to be. They are not facing the limitations we faced as young girls (and as grown women). This generation of girls will break free from these chains of our heritage because they don't even realize the limitations exist. Thank you for mentoring my daughter! She is a female that I expect we will continue to see leadership from for years to come, as is Ali Rae who posted a beautiful comment earlier! God is amazing in you! Deanie Heather-

I am jumping into this conversation late, but I want to chime in anyway. I love the Church of Christ heritage, although as with all flavors of christianity, we have our warts! One of the things I find encouraging about the C of C is that WE define it. It has changed so much from one generation to the next, sometimes for the better, often for the worse, but it is constantly changing and being reinvented by a new generation of believers. As someone who works with our youth at Garnett, I am excited by the fact that our teens don’t carry any of this baggage concerning women in leadership. We have many strong female leaders and we celebrate them. I am about to begin a small group study for our middle school girls called, “She Rox!” We will be talking about many of the women you mentioned in your post. I will be using the examples set by these ordinary women to challenge the girls to become the extraordinary servants God has called each of them to be. They are not facing the limitations we faced as young girls (and as grown women). This generation of girls will break free from these chains of our heritage because they don’t even realize the limitations exist.

Thank you for mentoring my daughter! She is a female that I expect we will continue to see leadership from for years to come, as is Ali Rae who posted a beautiful comment earlier!

God is amazing in you!

Deanie

]]> By: no more bondage http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-167 no more bondage Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:19:52 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-167 Heather, Thanks for talking about this. I married into your fellowship and accepted the beliefs taught on many things. Finally, God opened my eyes and my husband's eyes - he was a fourth generation member of this fellowship. An Oklahoma congregation was admonished by the elders that we were in serious jeopardy for daring to have women pray in a private home with men present. The people were warned to stay away from us. Needless to say we didn't stay there much longer. You don't have to look very far for your answers on how restoration movement people made the changes you are discussing. The Disciples of Christ, who come from the same resortation movement started by the Campbells, have fully ordained women elders and ministers (not just for children or student ministry). The congregation we are most familiar with is a very old one, the original one in Tulsa, and the people there are for the most part very old. The women there are able to exercise whatever gift they are blessed with - no restrictions whatsoever. I think the real question is if you have the right to change the churches of Christ. I believe they have the right to exist as they do. I think you need to summon the courage to make the move to a group that embraces the things you know to be the truth. God bless you in your quest. Heather,

Thanks for talking about this. I married into your fellowship and accepted the beliefs taught on many things. Finally, God opened my eyes and my husband’s eyes – he was a fourth generation member of this fellowship. An Oklahoma congregation was admonished by the elders that we were in serious jeopardy for daring to have women pray in a private home with men present. The people were warned to stay away from us. Needless to say we didn’t stay there much longer.

You don’t have to look very far for your answers on how restoration movement people made the changes you are discussing. The Disciples of Christ, who come from the same resortation movement started by the Campbells, have fully ordained women elders and ministers (not just for children or student ministry). The congregation we are most familiar with is a very old one, the original one in Tulsa, and the people there are for the most part very old. The women there are able to exercise whatever gift they are blessed with – no restrictions whatsoever.

I think the real question is if you have the right to change the churches of Christ. I believe they have the right to exist as they do. I think you need to summon the courage to make the move to a group that embraces the things you know to be the truth.

God bless you in your quest.

]]> By: Heather http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-154 Heather Fri, 10 Aug 2007 14:47:38 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-154 Robert - Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I have had the same experience that you and Andrea have voiced. It is often women (and not always women of a certain age) who are strongly apposed to other women exercising their spiritual gifts. Why? Good question. I have actually spoken with several of these women and the common answer I have gotten is, "I just think it is wrong." or "It's just not the way I was raised." In these circumstances perhaps education about the issue is long over due. Robert – Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. I have had the same experience that you and Andrea have voiced. It is often women (and not always women of a certain age) who are strongly apposed to other women exercising their spiritual gifts. Why? Good question. I have actually spoken with several of these women and the common answer I have gotten is, “I just think it is wrong.” or “It’s just not the way I was raised.” In these circumstances perhaps education about the issue is long over due.

]]> By: Robert http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-146 Robert Thu, 09 Aug 2007 02:57:53 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-146 Yes, I was serious. Heather has long been in support of women exercising their spiritual gifts in the church, and I too uphold that cause. If the Holy Spirit has blessed a woman, or man, with the gift to lead (and it truly takes a gift greater than the ability to pee while standing to be an effective leader *insert laughter*) and has the humble desire in her (or his) heart to truly see people transform their lives, then I for one have no problem following a woman’s lead. I grew up in a congregation that shunned a woman who as much as whispered from 10AM – 11:15. Women were even discouraged from singing louder than a man. Communion tray had to pass through a man’s hand before it could go to his wife. Compounded with other issues, it was truly a horrid and spiritless place. My maternal grandfather was a circuit preacher wile he raised his family. He was hailed as a great man of faith, courage, and knowledge – yet it was my grandmother who wrote many of his best lessons. My paternal great grandfather surely was glorified as the spiritual leader of his family on any given Sunday, until the final A-men. It was my great grandmother who nurtured and passed down a deep faith in God to her 8 children, 32 grandchildren, and 76 great grandchildren. I think the best blessing/strength the Garnett church has going for it is it’s decade long unwritten heritage of the spouses’ of it’s ministers being included as part of the ministering team. As an estranged Garnett partner one of the elements of worship that I miss the most, and have found nowhere else in town, is the ability of a woman who needs to repent of sins, unload her heart, or ask for personal prayers to be able to do so with woman who is publicly recognized as a ministering servant, prayer warrior, or ordained leader of a congregation. It has to be very reassuring to know that at the end of that long and often embarrassing walk to the front of a worship service to repent or ask for prayers that there is a man AND a woman holding hands and lovingly stretching out there arms to pray with you, even more so if you a single woman with no one to accompany yo; I can’t imagine a more reassuring feeling. If a woman is truly gifted for more than teaching (which, btw, I feel is one of the highest calling for any of us) and meet all of a congregations spiritual expectations of a man, then she should feel equally empowered and ordained. One of my biggest struggles in trying to find a new home congregation is to find one that I feel will honor, encourage, and develop any gifts my children manifest, including my daughters. From my observation of both my children, my daughter shows a propensity for leadership and teaching, and I want to be in a place that will allow her to use those gifts if she desires to. An aside: I think MANY MORE MEN should humble themselves and serve in our church nurseries. There should be just as many daddies changing diapers (male infants only of course) as mommies. They should also take up the cause of MOPS groups across the country and lovingly serve and tend to these ladies, babies, and toddlers. Where ARE all the men? Kudos to my many male friends at the Garnett church who continue to serve in the nursery LLLOOOONNNNGGGG after their own children have been in diapers – you are the true unsung heroes of your church. Andrea raises a truly valid point “It has not been my experience that the objections to women in leadership are predominately male”. I too have found that women, many years older and within my own age range, seem to be more outspoken about/against women who seem to exert more authority than their male counterparts. Why is that? Yes, I was serious. Heather has long been in support of women exercising their spiritual gifts in the church, and I too uphold that cause.

If the Holy Spirit has blessed a woman, or man, with the gift to lead (and it truly takes a gift greater than the ability to pee while standing to be an effective leader *insert laughter*) and has the humble desire in her (or his) heart to truly see people transform their lives, then I for one have no problem following a woman’s lead.

I grew up in a congregation that shunned a woman who as much as whispered from 10AM – 11:15. Women were even discouraged from singing louder than a man. Communion tray had to pass through a man’s hand before it could go to his wife. Compounded with other issues, it was truly a horrid and spiritless place.

My maternal grandfather was a circuit preacher wile he raised his family. He was hailed as a great man of faith, courage, and knowledge – yet it was my grandmother who wrote many of his best lessons.

My paternal great grandfather surely was glorified as the spiritual leader of his family on any given Sunday, until the final A-men. It was my great grandmother who nurtured and passed down a deep faith in God to her 8 children, 32 grandchildren, and 76 great grandchildren.

I think the best blessing/strength the Garnett church has going for it is it’s decade long unwritten heritage of the spouses’ of it’s ministers being included as part of the ministering team. As an estranged Garnett partner one of the elements of worship that I miss the most, and have found nowhere else in town, is the ability of a woman who needs to repent of sins, unload her heart, or ask for personal prayers to be able to do so with woman who is publicly recognized as a ministering servant, prayer warrior, or ordained leader of a congregation. It has to be very reassuring to know that at the end of that long and often embarrassing walk to the front of a worship service to repent or ask for prayers that there is a man AND a woman holding hands and lovingly stretching out there arms to pray with you, even more so if you a single woman with no one to accompany yo; I can’t imagine a more reassuring feeling.

If a woman is truly gifted for more than teaching (which, btw, I feel is one of the highest calling for any of us) and meet all of a congregations spiritual expectations of a man, then she should feel equally empowered and ordained.

One of my biggest struggles in trying to find a new home congregation is to find one that I feel will honor, encourage, and develop any gifts my children manifest, including my daughters. From my observation of both my children, my daughter shows a propensity for leadership and teaching, and I want to be in a place that will allow her to use those gifts if she desires to.

An aside: I think MANY MORE MEN should humble themselves and serve in our church nurseries. There should be just as many daddies changing diapers (male infants only of course) as mommies. They should also take up the cause of MOPS groups across the country and lovingly serve and tend to these ladies, babies, and toddlers. Where ARE all the men?

Kudos to my many male friends at the Garnett church who continue to serve in the nursery LLLOOOONNNNGGGG after their own children have been in diapers – you are the true unsung heroes of your church.

Andrea raises a truly valid point “It has not been my experience that the objections to women in leadership are predominately male”. I too have found that women, many years older and within my own age range, seem to be more outspoken about/against women who seem to exert more authority than their male counterparts. Why is that?

]]> By: admin http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-145 admin Thu, 09 Aug 2007 02:56:47 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-145 Andrea, You have been a partner at Garnett longer than I have and so you can see the long term changes taking place. I've only been here 4 1/2 years so the changes seem slower to me perhaps. But nevertheless, changes are occurring. The challenge with changing our church culture in this way is that it is not a crisis, burden, or injustice to the men in leadership. Even the brightest and well meaning among them, who happen to agree with us, are facing more urgent daily matters. Their energies are limited and this may not be a hill they are able to scale at this time. I'm not sure. But I do know that unless we continue to have this conversation nothing will be accomplished. Perhaps, a first practical step in the right direction might be to begin including the "wives of future shepherds" in the full SIT (Shepherd in Training) process (refer to www.wadehodges.com for a full explanation of SIT.) Brad, Welcome to the conversation. I agree, the greatest legacy we could leave our daughters is the opportunity to fully participate in the gospel by using their gifts in the church. Perhaps the "slow, plodding battles fought today" will bear fruit for the next generation. But then on the other hand Andrea has a valid point when she said, "... in history, change of this nature has not occurred with simple, gentle steps. It has been through bold moves that declare the truth and then act on that truth without allowing fear to render us immobile." What could those bold moves be for us today? Andrea,
You have been a partner at Garnett longer than I have and so you can see the long term changes taking place. I’ve only been here 4 1/2 years so the changes seem slower to me perhaps. But nevertheless, changes are occurring. The challenge with changing our church culture in this way is that it is not a crisis, burden, or injustice to the men in leadership. Even the brightest and well meaning among them, who happen to agree with us, are facing more urgent daily matters. Their energies are limited and this may not be a hill they are able to scale at this time. I’m not sure. But I do know that unless we continue to have this conversation nothing will be accomplished. Perhaps, a first practical step in the right direction might be to begin including the “wives of future shepherds” in the full SIT (Shepherd in Training) process (refer to http://www.wadehodges.com for a full explanation of SIT.)

Brad,
Welcome to the conversation. I agree, the greatest legacy we could leave our daughters is the opportunity to fully participate in the gospel by using their gifts in the church. Perhaps the “slow, plodding battles fought today” will bear fruit for the next generation. But then on the other hand Andrea has a valid point when she said, “… in history, change of this nature has not occurred with simple, gentle steps. It has been through bold moves that declare the truth and then act on that truth without allowing fear to render us immobile.” What could those bold moves be for us today?

]]> By: riddle http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-144 riddle Thu, 09 Aug 2007 02:28:46 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-144 Heather, thanks for this post. I appreciate your boldness. I think you are overly gracious in your explanation of the harm done to women and the church by this ugly belief. Please let me know how I can stand with you. mark Heather,

thanks for this post. I appreciate your boldness. I think you are overly gracious in your explanation of the harm done to women and the church by this ugly belief.

Please let me know how I can stand with you.

mark

]]> By: Brad http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-142 Brad Thu, 09 Aug 2007 01:40:11 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-142 Maybe there is victory in the journey. Slow, plodding battles fought today can bless a whole generation of people yet to come. Maybe that is worth it. Maybe securing something for the women of the future is the noblest of pursuits in this area, one you can feel blessed in right now, with every inch of higher ground that is stepped up on. Maybe there is victory in the journey. Slow, plodding battles fought today can bless a whole generation of people yet to come. Maybe that is worth it. Maybe securing something for the women of the future is the noblest of pursuits in this area, one you can feel blessed in right now, with every inch of higher ground that is stepped up on.

]]> By: Andrea http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-141 Andrea Wed, 08 Aug 2007 21:14:22 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-141 Oops... didn't finish. This seems to be correct when I speak directly to the leadership. However, the stated position and actions of our church are otherwise. Therefore, the belief that is projected to our community is one of limited roles for women. That won't change until leadership changes it. Now, having said that, I am humbled by the struggle our elders/ministers must face in trying to balance what is best for the congregation and the beliefs they hold individually (hence my comments about leaving those that are happy with their heritage beliefs). I'm certain encouraging or embracing change on behalf of an entire congregation is much more difficult than making those choices for only yourself. Brad seems to really have a good take on the possible outcomes of action. I think he summarizes well the pain of change. I guess it isn't surprising that I don't like the potential outcomes of any of these courses of action. Garnett is my home. I believe in our mission. I believe in the changes we've seen happen over the last 6 years. It has been so painful and so beautiful. We are different, we are changed...but it is deeper and richer and sweeter than ever. There's just a few more places I think we have to go... will we have the courage to go there? Is it right for the congregation as a whole or are just a few of us feeling called to something different? I don't know - but I'm excited to see! As an aside to the men that have comment. It has not been my experience that the objections to women in leadership are predominately male. Oops… didn’t finish.

This seems to be correct when I speak directly to the leadership. However, the stated position and actions of our church are otherwise. Therefore, the belief that is projected to our community is one of limited roles for women. That won’t change until leadership changes it.

Now, having said that, I am humbled by the struggle our elders/ministers must face in trying to balance what is best for the congregation and the beliefs they hold individually (hence my comments about leaving those that are happy with their heritage beliefs). I’m certain encouraging or embracing change on behalf of an entire congregation is much more difficult than making those choices for only yourself.

Brad seems to really have a good take on the possible outcomes of action. I think he summarizes well the pain of change. I guess it isn’t surprising that I don’t like the potential outcomes of any of these courses of action.

Garnett is my home. I believe in our mission. I believe in the changes we’ve seen happen over the last 6 years. It has been so painful and so beautiful. We are different, we are changed…but it is deeper and richer and sweeter than ever. There’s just a few more places I think we have to go… will we have the courage to go there? Is it right for the congregation as a whole or are just a few of us feeling called to something different? I don’t know – but I’m excited to see!

As an aside to the men that have comment. It has not been my experience that the objections to women in leadership are predominately male.

]]> By: Andrea http://www.heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/comment-page-1/#comment-140 Andrea Wed, 08 Aug 2007 20:49:55 +0000 http://heatherhodges.com/2007/08/07/where-are-the-women/#comment-140 Heather: "Is it possible that the heritage values at our congregation are not the values of our current leaders, but rather those of past leaders? Heather: “Is it possible that the heritage values at our congregation are not the values of our current leaders, but rather those of past leaders?

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